Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 51 to 54 of 54
  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Aura View Post
    I would love to ask at which stage AK wasn't a grind game for LP. I understand Nightmare Dungeons might feel repetitive when players don't feel the urge to do other dungeons because they are less rewarding. But original dungeons are just as repetitive as Nightmares, and you might feel even less motivated by their drops if we would just stick to those.

    Once again, It feels like people doesn't get the point that Nightmare Dungeons are another mode for current existing dungeons, with a different level of difficulty and customized drops. Solo, Solo Challenge, Party, Hell Mode and Nightmare. Honestly, people complaining about how "grinding" AK is, does feel like something we can do little about. Unless there is a point Im missing from your reply.
    I know and I don't complain about a grind but my issue is more that you don't do anything. With regular dungeons I spend like what 32 hours straight grinding them quite happily because I spend maybe 75% of the time killing things and moving and optimising clear efficiency. With NTL (and this doesn't go for other nightmares) I feel like I'm not playing the game so much as being afk with the occasional button press which is why it being the core dungeon I feel the need to run it is less like a grind more like a waiting simulator it just doesn't feel rewarding to do. Maybe that's just my feeling on it idk but I know a fair few people that aren't overly keen to run it so often.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by 1cemaniac View Post
    I know and I don't complain about a grind but my issue is more that you don't do anything. With regular dungeons I spend like what 32 hours straight grinding them quite happily because I spend maybe 75% of the time killing things and moving and optimising clear efficiency. With NTL (and this doesn't go for other nightmares) I feel like I'm not playing the game so much as being afk with the occasional button press which is why it being the core dungeon I feel the need to run it is less like a grind more like a waiting simulator it just doesn't feel rewarding to do. Maybe that's just my feeling on it idk but I know a fair few people that aren't overly keen to run it so often.
    So basically, you want a normal dungeon based nightmare for LP that's not as painful (wait times and standing around) to do? fair enough, tbf I wouldn't mind another way of getting LP at least I won't have to make additional alts. And I get what you mean, when I was leveling I grinded dungeons solo and challenge every 3 hours as it was clear cut run and fight with value (getting me to s10) there was more doing and less waiting. Seeing as LP is the end game grind, would like to see a normal dungeon nightmare give good quantities of it like in NTL.

  3. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Lind View Post
    I think the real problem here is the lack of meaningful mid-tier content. One could argue that STC is supposed to be that, but it can't carry that out alone (for a number of reasons, the most simple one being its weekend-only nature).
    Currently AKTO progression can be broken down into something like this:

    1. Fresh start
    2. Doing MQ all the way up to 75s, that's the first time there's any challenge whatsoever
    3a. Overcoming it by grinding gear/lp (there's really nothing else already), or
    3b. Ignoring it, going for the side options (which are very limited for new players with lack of gold/lp)

    Eventually, most players I've seen struggle do end up getting through, and we hit the next issue:

    4. Doing MQ through 90 maps, therefore unlocking nightmares. This is where you hit the second big challenge - XP grind wall. Options are pretty scarce:
    5a. Slowly grind XP through dungeons (it really is slow for someone with no ability to blaze through solo or even clear party modes at all)
    5b. Look for carry parties. Keep in mind that because of lament being XP goldmine, much less people even run dungeons - like I said a year ago or so, "why do that when you can do lament in 10-20 minutes and get 3 hours worth of dungeon xp".
    5c. Slowly grind gear/lp/money instead of bothering with XP at all, be it through NTL/ST carry or spamming other lp instances
    5d. Going back to 3b. Some players actually do end up giving up here, as you still can't do anything meaningful - 90 is "old content" for all interactive intents.

    I'd say this is where more options could be offered. XL already gave a decent head start with regular Time Library, but for a relatively new player it's still incredibly unappealing in terms of challenge/reward. And that's about the only option too, if you don't count Philae (which is fun to do about 3 times before turning into a chore).
    Note that without LP you still can't do almost anything - collecting eidolons, costumes and other vanity stuff requires vast amounts of it, so you really do have to either grind out of your mind, or rely on that carry. In my opinion, carry culture has more negatives than positives - people grow their ego without learning anything meaningful, be that research or trial/error.
    Things don't really get better here:

    6. Eventually, you hit that level 99, and face awakening quest. This is the third key point. If you're not ready, it will slap you. Hard. Once again, really not much in terms of options:
    7a. Grind more LP (which is about the only way of actually overcoming the quest). I'd say this is a good estimation of a mid-tier gear threshold.
    7b. Go back to 3b
    *7c. AKJP and potentially others have introduced cash (maybe lp too?) option to skip the quest by just buying the boss drops in item mall. I see why they did that, but it's certainly not helpful when we talk about good progression. It's the opposite, if anything.
    8. After you clear awakening, this is it. A few more levels to grind, a few more maps to go through. But there's really nothing separating a freshly awakened player from someone who's soloing NTL aside from numbers in character stats and some gear (which can be either easily obtainable if it's craftable, or ridiculously hard to get if it's gold, mostly because of the broken economy. By the way, the s5 rerolls played a serious part in that, so please don't bring s15 rerolls until s15 gear falls out of top tier.).

    Of course players will aim straight for the nightmares - there's just nothing else to do. Vanilla content is unrewarding, and very few new players want to do something purely for a challenge when there's gearing up to be done - which in turn would remove the challenge even for the "fun" aspect.
    On the other hand, every time a new feature update drops, people that already do clear things raise their requirements, making the gap for newer players even wider. That's another problem - "endgame" becomes something subjective/floating and not at all representative of players' actual status, because a single high dps carry can more often than not substitute a well-rounded party. But new players won't team up with other new players, because they don't want to fail - so they will be looking for that carry rather than attempt things on their own (except for playing with friends maybe).

    That's about it. There's a lack of good bridge from 4 to 6, and post-8 gameplay doesn't really offer anything aside from endless grind for more stuff, so that you could grind more dungeons for even more stuff. If anything, I think endgame could use a solo instance somewhere - TW nightmares have attempted that, but in the current form they're just a mess, PEN system really breaks them. And their rewards are pretty questionable, compared to other options, at least on this server.
    If you want multiplayer endgame that involves more than just throwing damage at bosses, you would seriously have to take another look at every part of gameplay. Like I mentioned before, you'd have to individually tweak classes' output, as well as make sure survivability is a part of a challenge. Nothing kills fun more than passive lifesteal, and although it's nerfed in nightmares right now, it can still sustain you with high enough damage. That, and players taking way too little damage, completely killing any sort of case where you'd require a tank. And all of that would take time to achieve.
    Agree!

  4. #54
    Active User Miss_Garnet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    108
    I originally felt a bit concerned with a growing discussion about this in a maintenance thread, but regardless of where it happened, I'm happy with what resulted. I won't respond to the variety things I could, but instead I'll just say that I feel this has been a productive discussion, and there's been multiple sides discussed, all of which really don't have "wrong" stances.

    I think what was more or less agreed upon by most here was that there has been a growing gap between vanilla end-game (or starting even before that, depending) and nightmares. I'd probably be more okay with nightmares being more for those just wanting a challenge if there was much more content filling this gap below that, and this problem only grows more and more as the content of the game does. Every time some new "system" is added that gives players a lot of potential power, but requires substantial investment (all of the RNG mini-games, like those for secret stones and costumes, holy chest, and eidolon stories as some recent examples), it is only going to make this issue exponentially worse. For those who've been able to keep up with all of it as the game grows, and/or compensate with advantaged classes, this might not seem to be as much of an issue (if one at all), but for anyone else, this issue can be obvious and/or painful.

    So, maybe in the future, something can be done to fill this gap too? I understand that it would mean work and investment needed, and it doesn't come out of thin air, but (and this is my personal opinion) this gap is there, it is growing, and it is actually sorely needed. I don't really have a whole ton of ideas for this myself, but if this thread is any indication, the players could probably come together and come up with something. Maybe something that is more or less simply existing Hell modes made a few times harder, with LP drops instead of DP/GDP, could be one of many possible ideas. It wouldn't be anything radically different, but if the balance/reward ratio was done right, it could be worth running (this could also answer the concern raised about how NTL is mostly passive and less play whereas most dungeons are more active), and it (should be?) minimal on work needed compared to the nightmare dungeons, meaning they could be done more en masse. I'd love to see this growing gap given attention in the future though.

    And yes please on the Civet pets!

    Oh, sorry, one more thing since "the word" was said by "the one"...
    Quote Originally Posted by Noy View Post
    But
    *pats*

    Hi Noah!



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •